More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally inferior, just as you see them. I'm here to understand the issues and make my own decision.
Haven't you ever wondered about something that you knew nothing about? How would you learn about it other than reading and asking questions? I have no idea how you concluded that I might be trolling, especially after I both admitted ignorance and asked to be cut a break for it.
Regarding your list:
- Right to travel: There are many people from China living in the US. Do you have more info about this point? I don't understand how their right to travel is restricted.
- Right to free speech: If you were to try to start a new news organization to compete with CBS/Fox/etc, the organization wouldn't get very far unless it had a clear political agenda and was funded by supporters of that agenda. I'm interested to hear about what it's like in China in comparison to the US.
- Right to read the internet uncensored: There's no debate on this point.
- Right to vote: Candidates seem to be elected based on how well-funded they are. Or rather, no one votes for an underfunded candidate, so these are equivalent. Again, I am interested to hear about China's system, and why it's morally inferior in comparison to this.
Thanks for your time. I realize I probably sound pretty dumb here, but I'm here to learn, not to defend my position. In fact, I have no position. Only questions.
> More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally inferior, just as you see them.
My wife is urban mainland Chinese, with no particular political or social axe to grind. She's not some dedicated protester or anything and nor are any of her family, one of whom is a government official. From personal experience I can say many, and probably most ordinary Chinese are perfectly well aware of just how appaling, venal and corrupt their government and political system is. They're patriotic and would fight for China as a nation against any foreing power, but they're not totally ignorant or stupid.
Right to travel - The Hokou system in China restricts country people form accessing education, health care and social services in cities where they dwell. Even if they were born there! Most cities have hundreds of thousands of country people living in them with no actual right to be there whatsoever. People not of Han ethnicity face severe bureaucratic problems exercising rights Han Chinese take for granted. It's not official, but it happens.
Free Speech - There are publications espousing every possible political or religious belief that can scrape together the cash in the west, not so in China. Speech on the internet counts, in China it is not free. Western publications are routinely banned.
Right to Vote - True democracies have more than one political party, and it is possible for the party in power to change. You may have noticed this actually happened in India very recently. It also happened here in the UK at the last election, and in the USA the election before last. In fact the current president of the USA is constitutionaly barred from even standing in the next election. These are manifest expressions of democracy actualy working before your eyes. The only reason marginal political groups don't get much representation is because they're marginal for a reason - people choose not to vote for them. The Chinese people have no such choice.
Very true, but how does that benefit the Chinese People? The only people it benefits are the other politically indistinguishable princeling oligarchs that want their turn at the top.
Your "Right to free speech" and "Right to read the internet uncensored" are quite closely connected. China actively restricts social media at a government / policy level much more aggressively than is done in western countries.
Regarding right to travel - there are problems in China with internal migrants not getting the rights that locals get. For example, if someone moves to a new city for economic opportunity then they may find it difficult qualifying for education for their children (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system#Effect_on_rural_w...). There are restrictions on some government officials from travelling outside the country (e.g. http://www.scmp.com/news/china-insider/article/1367723/shaan...) - again these kinds of restrictions probably occur in some jobs in the west, but are less widespread. Similarly there are restrictions on some activists, which are probably more widespread in China - although one would want to be wary of the newsources on this as there is a natural bias.
In western democracies one of the main differences with the Chinese system is that there is significant communication effort around elections and attempting to educate people on the political system. There are parallels within the Chinese system but the western system involves a lot more direct communication. I am not saying one system is morally inferior to the others, but arguments can be made regarding the costs and benefits of the different systems.
Nobody claimed that the Chinese people are morally inferior.
Your example of comparing the challenges of starting a news organization to compete with the likes of Fox News to that of the censorship that has been going on in China for years seems to a stretch, to say the least. Same goes for your "right to vote" comparison.
I recommend you visit Amazon and pick up a couple of books on China if you are interested in getting up to speed on what is going on. Also, check out the events that have been going on in Hong Kong.
These questions are so basic they seem like either trolling or a back-handed way of expressing an opinion.
If, as your comments suggest that isn't your goal, then spending 30 minutes on wikipedia would be a better use of time than asking HN about Chinese politics.
I get the sense that you're approaching this as "neither system is perfect, so they are equivalent"?
In other words, since you could get shot by a cop in the US even though you did nothing wrong, that means American is no better than ISIS who massacres thousands of innocent civilians?
I would argue there are real, important differences in the points you called out as equivalent (or near-equivalent).
How about trying to answer the original question, instead of attacking a position you assume he holds, a position which, in fact, he explicitly states he does not hold? The question, for the record, was "What does the US government believe it stands to gain by ensuring a strong democratic power in the region, and what does it believe it stands to lose if it fails to do so?". Other replies seem to have had no trouble understanding the question. Tearing someone down for requesting information and opinions is not productive.
It was probably a terrible mistake to try to seek answers on a forum regarding political matters. Apologies.
I would argue there are real, important differences in the points you called out as equivalent (or near-equivalent).
Which points did I say were equivalent? I said no such thing. I was saying, "I have no clue what I'm talking about, and I have no clue what life in China is like, so please correct me."
But since I've said that multiple times and it's still not getting across, I think it's better for HN if everyone would just ignore my chain of comments.
I think the problem is partly that your question reads and functions a lot like trolling. Asking the difference between a democratic power and China is pretty strange in itself (the Chinese government famously drew this distinction pretty clearly when it killed hundreds of people for advocating democracy in Tiananmen Square in 1989) — and then in the last sentence of your question, you seem to acknowledge that you do know the difference, but that you are ignoring it because you think they are just "flags to fight under." I don't know what your real intention is, but the comment is pretty weird and comes across as either trolling or a Glenn Beck-style "I'm just asking questions" argument.
Thanks for the feedback. It's extremely frustrating to try to ask innocent questions on HN, especially with the influx of people who enjoy lording themselves and their own personal expertise over people who have admitted ignorance and are here to seek knowledge. Given my lack of knowledge, the only way I can hope to try to formulate a precise question is to "throw myself out there" and attempt to do so. That, of course, results in stupid questions and statements, but that was the entire point: to correct the stupidity and not live with it.
> It was probably a terrible mistake to try to seek answers on a forum regarding political matters.
Well, that's probably true, since politics is a mindkiller. :)
If you want to understand current foreign policy of the US, I recommend reading history, rather than politically aimed books or essays. History books and essays will often have political aims as well, but the slight remove from the present day introduces somewhat more consensus, and understanding how the world got to the current situation will inform your political understanding more evenly than reading a lot of posturing for one political position or another, in my opinion.
I don't have specific recommendations, since most of my history reading, sadly, was in the twentieth century, and I don't remember titles that had a strong foreign policy element. However, one suggestion would be to go through college course listings, such as http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/history/ , and drill down to the readings for a strong list of books.
Haven't you ever wondered about something that you knew nothing about? How would you learn about it other than reading and asking questions? I have no idea how you concluded that I might be trolling, especially after I both admitted ignorance and asked to be cut a break for it.
Regarding your list:
- Right to travel: There are many people from China living in the US. Do you have more info about this point? I don't understand how their right to travel is restricted.
- Right to free speech: If you were to try to start a new news organization to compete with CBS/Fox/etc, the organization wouldn't get very far unless it had a clear political agenda and was funded by supporters of that agenda. I'm interested to hear about what it's like in China in comparison to the US.
- Right to read the internet uncensored: There's no debate on this point.
- Right to vote: Candidates seem to be elected based on how well-funded they are. Or rather, no one votes for an underfunded candidate, so these are equivalent. Again, I am interested to hear about China's system, and why it's morally inferior in comparison to this.
Thanks for your time. I realize I probably sound pretty dumb here, but I'm here to learn, not to defend my position. In fact, I have no position. Only questions.