> I'd like to disagree with you on that point. Yes, you get ideas passed down to your by others, but if you do not bother to examine them and act blindly on the premise that these things must be right, because others told you, without putting any deliberation into the truth of these moral dictates...
Statistically speaking, as a 14 year old you're not going to come to any earth shattering conclusions in morality that your parents, society, school, teachers, etc, have overlooked. Critical examination is an important life skill, but so is accepting that adults have a lot of insight into the world that you don't, and that society can teach you a lot without your having to learn things the hard way.
> My parent taught me they didn't care (or couldn't), my school taught me I was in the wrong place, and my peers taught me that I was scum.
Nothing about what I said is meant to assert that parents, teachers, etc, always say or do the right things. I'm necessarily speaking in generalities. I don't think your average teenager doing this kind of thing can raise the defense that their parents and teachers didn't teach them right from wrong. Some parents are terrible at being parents, and don't love and support their kids while also teaching them. But we're speaking in generalities here.
> Firstof, they're not defective. Don't even say a child is broken
A 14 year old is not a child. Not fully an adult, but not a child either. Respecting peoples' privacy should be well within the wheelhouse of your average teenager. And some people are broken. There is a bell curve of ability to function in society, and some people are X number of standard deviations away from the mean in a wrong way. It's unfortunate, but there is no point in not calling a spade a spade.
> Society is a pretty bad measuring stick for morals.
On average, society is a pretty good measuring stick for morals. There's all sorts of things you shouldn't do, that people don't do, because society tells them not to. There is a difference between blindingly accepting things like racisim, because in some contexts it is socially accepted, and acknowledging that even that same society still teaches you not to kick animals or kick little girls in the shins. Contemporary social understanding is a great starting point for your own moral framework, and one which you should lean on more heavily as a child and a teenager until your rationality and experience develop sufficiently to better analyze the world around you.
> Then to the disciplining thing. There's a difference between teaching something to your kids, and threatening them to do something.
Children are not adults. They are not capable of the rational thought of adults. They can be taught, but they cannot always be taught.
Right now, my 3 month old doesn't realize that I continue to exist when she can't see me. From 3 months to 3 years to 13 years, children and teenagers are still partially formed, their faculties of reason not fully in place. Your toddler isn't going to understand your reasoning with her, and while your teenager will usually do so, at the end of the day, sometimes the only thing they will understand is punishment.
> I don't think your average teenager doing this kind of thing can raise the defense that their parents and teachers didn't teach them right from wrong.
You are talking not about the "average teenager" but about the "average teenager doing this kind of thing", yes?
One is a very tiny fraction of the other.
I think, looking at the tiny fraction, it is way more likely that (lack of) guidance by the parents/teachers/society is to blame than the kid being inherently "bad".
Especially since kids with developmental problems, that maybe have trouble developing their own moral compass, can still be raised with proper values, given the right environment. The converse (bad environment+neurotypical kid) however, is very likely to result in bad behaviour.
edit I am NOT trying to excuse any of this behaviour btw. Just saying that environment is a huge factor. And speaking from just over a year's experience teaching kids (computer stuff) roughly this age (a bit younger, 8-12 usually), quite a few of them have impressively well-developed moral compasses :) And the ones that are a bit more .. rowdy, I meet most of their parents at the end of the day, and I do notice some "patterns" (it's none of my business of course and I try to not judge, but little things like some make their kids thank me for helping them this afternoon--absolutely unnecessary for me of course, but it's still a signifier for caring about their upbringing and manners, etc)
Statistically speaking, as a 14 year old you're not going to come to any earth shattering conclusions in morality that your parents, society, school, teachers, etc, have overlooked. Critical examination is an important life skill, but so is accepting that adults have a lot of insight into the world that you don't, and that society can teach you a lot without your having to learn things the hard way.
> My parent taught me they didn't care (or couldn't), my school taught me I was in the wrong place, and my peers taught me that I was scum.
Nothing about what I said is meant to assert that parents, teachers, etc, always say or do the right things. I'm necessarily speaking in generalities. I don't think your average teenager doing this kind of thing can raise the defense that their parents and teachers didn't teach them right from wrong. Some parents are terrible at being parents, and don't love and support their kids while also teaching them. But we're speaking in generalities here.
> Firstof, they're not defective. Don't even say a child is broken
A 14 year old is not a child. Not fully an adult, but not a child either. Respecting peoples' privacy should be well within the wheelhouse of your average teenager. And some people are broken. There is a bell curve of ability to function in society, and some people are X number of standard deviations away from the mean in a wrong way. It's unfortunate, but there is no point in not calling a spade a spade.
> Society is a pretty bad measuring stick for morals.
On average, society is a pretty good measuring stick for morals. There's all sorts of things you shouldn't do, that people don't do, because society tells them not to. There is a difference between blindingly accepting things like racisim, because in some contexts it is socially accepted, and acknowledging that even that same society still teaches you not to kick animals or kick little girls in the shins. Contemporary social understanding is a great starting point for your own moral framework, and one which you should lean on more heavily as a child and a teenager until your rationality and experience develop sufficiently to better analyze the world around you.
> Then to the disciplining thing. There's a difference between teaching something to your kids, and threatening them to do something.
Children are not adults. They are not capable of the rational thought of adults. They can be taught, but they cannot always be taught.
Right now, my 3 month old doesn't realize that I continue to exist when she can't see me. From 3 months to 3 years to 13 years, children and teenagers are still partially formed, their faculties of reason not fully in place. Your toddler isn't going to understand your reasoning with her, and while your teenager will usually do so, at the end of the day, sometimes the only thing they will understand is punishment.