Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals?
If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism.
If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, experienced personally or know from local hearsay?
Talking about apartments, do you agree on the principle that access to public housing should be given to those most in need? Do you also agree on the principle that the needs for every lawful person should be addressed regardless of their country of origin? If you do, what is the problem them? If you do not, why?
Question for the US readers: do scenes like those depicted in Steinbeck's novel The grapes of wrath still happen? Are people from rural zones like Oklahoma's countryside treated as filthy dangerous foreigners in California? Because that is what we are seeing and experiencing right now in the EU.
I'm Romanian, and I have no problem with Muzza's comment. He's perfectly right. If anything, we can breathe a bit easier here in Romania with all the gangs gone to better countries.
I do disagree though that deporting is the way to go. The problem is real, and shoving it under the carpet doesn't really solve much of it. What is needed is an EU-wide solution, and it needs to be well-thought and well implemented, because the problem isn't easier.
We've had a lot of negative feedback here in Romania because of the various criminals we exported to Italy. To my surprise when I went to visit Rome I found surprisingly large, very prosper and very hard-working Romanian minority. Yes, we exported beggars and criminals, but the number of "legitimate" immigrants was dwarfing them.
This is the main purpose of an open EU - to move labor, capital and markets where they are naturally needed. I'm pretty sure even northern countries like Germany, France or Holland (and quite possibly even Sweden) benefit from highly trained immigrants from Eastern Europe. I personally know Romanian doctors who lives in each of those countries. Sadly, Romania can't afford to retain good doctors - but this is how an open market works.
> If anything, we can breathe a bit easier here in Romania with all the gangs gone to better countries.
Ha! At least two parties (the gangs and the Romanians in Romania) are profiting.
> I do disagree though that deporting is the way to go. The problem is real, and shoving it under the carpet doesn't really solve much of it. What is needed is an EU-wide solution, and it needs to be well-thought and well implemented, because the problem isn't easier.
Yes. My criticism concerns only various leftists who believe that Romania's (and Bulgaria's, etc) problems should be solved by Sweden alone.
> If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force.
The Swedes likely don't have a problem with Bulgarians. He says Bulgarians and Romanians so he means gypsies. He may not know this but even if he does he's Swedish so saying that it's a gypsy problem would get him in shit socially.
Read the parent post again, no problem with Bulgarian people in general.
What's with your xenophobia/racism haunch? It is not unreasonable to discuss such effects due to relative open - e.g. compared to US - borders.
Last year in Germany I myself saw 'gangs of beggars'. While not a problem, it annoys me when on touristic places you'll get asked for money every two minutes from one of the (romanian) women with child. It feels like an industry.
It is an industry. Most of these gangs are exactly that: organised gangs. In a recent documentary in Ireland, they studied the problem and even followed them back to their own countries (where they lived in mansions). One of the women they followed carried a baby around for 14 hours while begging and it turned out it wasn't even hers - a number of the women shared this baby as a tool to gain more money while begging.
A friend of mine once overheard a beggar talking on the phone complaining that he only made €500 that day...
Not all beggars are like this, of course. Some genuinely fell on hard times. I have no problem buying someone food or paying their bus fare (if I have the money), or donating money to charities which help these people directly, but I refuse to ever give someone who is on the street begging for money anything.
The same reason you don't say black beggars or Mexican criminals. The racial or national background of these people might be interesting for sociologists but it's unhelpful in everyday discussions. It strips people of their dignity, whether it's intentional or not. Don't be that guy.
It is interesting and helpful, because the reasons that these beggars are operating in Sweden was given (internal migration within the EU).
If he hadn't said it, replies would have expressed surprise that the prosperous Swedes had resorted to aggressive organised criminal behaviour, and there would have been speculation on why that is.
There would also have been questions on why the government hasn't done anything about it yet, which he also addressed in his comment.
Look, this is about good manners, not censorship. Everything you've just said is trivial and unhelpful. Naming ethnicities this way will only make you look like a fool and undermine the point you're trying to make.
> Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals?
> If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism.
Presumably you are Bulgarian and I have offended you by not being nice to those compatriots of you who are begging on my streets. I am actually kind of sad for that, because I'm sure you and I could in fact get along quite beautifully. But the fact still remains: when I go out, I don't wish to be accosted by beggars. This is human nature.
> If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, experienced personally or know from local hearsay?
My bloody point was that vagrancy SHOULD be a crime. It ISN'T at present. (Also, the police are corrupt and willing to overlook crime when it suits them.)
> Do you also agree on the principle that the needs for every lawful person should be addressed regardless of their country of origin?
Certainly not. I find it totally absurd that if I (a Swedish citizen who's paid a lot of tax to the Swedish state) were to wind up on the streets, the Swedish state could quite possibly refuse me even a bed at a homeless shelter, at the same as a foreigner should be given his or her own apartment, no questions asked. This is not just. It's borderline evil.
> Presumably you are Bulgarian and I have offended you by not being nice to those compatriots of you who are begging on my streets.
No, I am not a Bulgarian or a Romanian. But yes, I am offended by people who use nationalities to denote groups of criminals. I am not that old, yet I have heard "Albanian", "Italian", "Spanish", "Polish", "Romanian", "Turkish", "Portuguese", "African", "Brazilian", "Senegalese", "Nigerian", "Egyptian", "Moroccan", "Chinese", "Arab" and many other demonyms used as an insult and to identify the latest and biggest threat to EU security and welfare systems. I find it difficult to think that all the Albanians, Italians, Spanish, Polish, etc., are all criminals. I am pretty sure that each country has its own fair share of criminals and that many of these flew to other countries in order to exploit their there-unknown cons, but I doubt that this warrants anyone the possibility to call out a whole nation as a problematic issue.
> when I go out, I don't wish to be accosted by beggars. This is human nature.
Isn't compassion part of human nature as well?
> My bloody point was that vagrancy SHOULD be a crime. It ISN'T at present.
It is in many EU countries. Many people in those countries complain just like you do.
An old saying of my country says «Never say "I will never drink from that spring"». You never know what may happen. There are many homeless people on the streets right now that used to be plain middle-class workers only 5 years ago. [1] Also, vagrancy, and homelessness in general, are on the rise. [2] An hungry person will not care much about anti-vagrancy laws. It will came to you and ask for help.
> (Also, the police are corrupt and willing to overlook crime when it suits them.)
This is your problem, not foreigners' problems. Your police is subject to bribery from gangs from other countries, what is the most effective action? Fix your police system or kick out gang X waiting for gang Y to start bribing the police?
> No, I am not a Bulgarian or a Romanian. But yes, I am offended by people who use nationalities to denote groups of criminals. I am not that old, yet I have heard "Albanian", "Italian", "Spanish", "Polish", "Romanian", "Turkish", "Portuguese", "African", "Brazilian", "Senegalese", "Nigerian", "Egyptian", "Moroccan", "Chinese", "Arab" and many other demonyms used as an insult and to identify the latest and biggest threat to EU security and welfare systems. I find it difficult to think that all the Albanians, Italians, Spanish, Polish, etc., are all criminals. I am pretty sure that each country has its own fair share of criminals and that many of these flew to other countries in order to exploit their there-unknown cons, but I doubt that this warrants anyone the possibility to call out a whole nation as a problematic issue.
Straw man. I have never suggested that all Bulgarians (or Romanians) are criminals. For Christ's sake, I even acknowledge that the current beggars on the streets where I live AREN'T criminals!
> Isn't compassion part of human nature as well?
I pay a 30% income tax (and my employer pays an additional 30% in payroll taxes, which is of course simply a hidden tax on me) and then 25% VAT on everything I buy. This pays for much welfare. I think it's /exceedingly/ compassionate of me to give away such a large part of my income - certainly more than the Christian concept of tithe. My compassion is not endless, however. And neither is yours.
But I wonder, why aren't the Bulgarians compassionate towards their own countrymen? Why don't you criticize them?
> This is your problem, not foreigners' problems. Your police is subject to bribery from gangs from other countries, what is the most effective action? Fix your police system or kick out gang X waiting for gang Y to start bribing the police?
I never suggested it was the foreigners' problems. Please stop your fucking straw man arguments.
I believe if you just call said vagrants/thieves what they are: gypsies, Bulgarians will be less likely to be insulted.
Us Romanians are more used to being confused with gypsies than Bulgarians, I guess. Gypsies even when to the trouble of renaming themselves to "Rroms", so they are more easily confused with Romanians.
If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism.
If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, experienced personally or know from local hearsay?
Talking about apartments, do you agree on the principle that access to public housing should be given to those most in need? Do you also agree on the principle that the needs for every lawful person should be addressed regardless of their country of origin? If you do, what is the problem them? If you do not, why?
Question for the US readers: do scenes like those depicted in Steinbeck's novel The grapes of wrath still happen? Are people from rural zones like Oklahoma's countryside treated as filthy dangerous foreigners in California? Because that is what we are seeing and experiencing right now in the EU.