I last switched jobs while working at Apple last October. Having the BATNA of your current employment is crucial to the negotiation process and I can't imagine forgoing that- if you have no current income that's an insane bargaining handicap.
Anyone with experience absolutely is not going to go for "quit your job, and maybe we'll give you a new one after a week, maybe it won't work out and you are boned"
I had a YC company that wanted me to do a trial week. They wanted me to quit my job when I said I couldn't take off a week of vacation.
When I said no, they wanted me to come out Friday through Monday and since the whole company works on the weekend, they would get 4 days to work with me.
Since it was in 2014 and I don't know if they still do this, I won't name them.
I guess the lesson learned is to ask what the interview process looks like before getting involved.
However for this company, I applied online, they sent me a InterviewStreet/HackerRank coding test, and only after I passed that did a recruiter call me, and tell me they wanted me onsite for a week.
>"However for this company, I applied online, they sent me a InterviewStreet/HackerRank coding test, and only after I passed that did a recruiter call me"
This is a huge red flag in my opinion and I would recommend people not agree to this. Why? Because it shows complete disregard for the candidate. "Pass a test and you can speak to an actual human being." Its demeaning. It also shows just how useless many recruiters have become. Part of the job of a recruiter's job and good ones do this, is to get a candidate excited about interviewing with the company and get the preliminary deal breaker questions out of the way to see if it even makes sense to proceed.
And for me that was a perfect interview. First quick question by email to see if I was interested, then some simple test to see if I can really program, then quick interview to see if I have required domain knowledge (all questions were about knowledge required to program effectively, not abstract "how to move mount fuji"). For an introvert programmer like me it's a perfect interview schedule. Also it helps when you are already working and want to check conditions in other company without risk of being thrown out from your current job.
I gave up on those the last time I wasted 4 hours of my life on one of those tests and never even got a rejection email. It wasn't a hard test and I didn't do badly.
Nowadays I just point them at my github. If a body of open source isn't enough to get an interview I'm not interested in working there.
Agreed. My experience is that recruiters are pretty flakey people(and I'm being charitable in that) - they regularly fail to keep scheduled calls, fail to follow up after asking you for some times to chat, take weeks or even months to respond resume submissions for jobs they are posting etc.
I have no problem with competency testing provided I have already spoken to someone on the team and established contact and registered interest with someone besides a recruiter.
I just finished working for a YC company that not only demanded a two week trial period, but after doing that trial period instead kept me on a contract billed for eight hour days but then insisted I must be in the office from 9 - 6:30 (their "engineering hours"). They wanted me to work close to 50 hours a week for no health insurance while underpaying hours and forcing me to attend all company events including weekend "hackathons" (haha so fun). It was a nightmare and I'm glad to be out of it.
The irony is that it was a company that prides itself on giving people stable jobs and healthcare.
Not only that, working for a company like Apple, you aren't allowed to write any code unless its been approved by the appropriate people...that just wouldn't work.
Why would it be a bargaining handicap unless you're running out of money (i.e. desperate)? If you're a strong enough candidate to land an offer at a top firm, it isn't worth it for them to low-ball you and risk spending more resources looking for strong candidates. Besides, if you can get an offer at Company X, you can probably get an offer at one of their competitors as well (which is your leverage).
Can probably get an offer is different from currently working at one of their competitors. It's a) a vote of confidence from another firm that this person is worth hiring b) an anchor point for your salary above where they would normally start the negotiations (yes even for "above average"). It removes all the guesswork of "can probable get an offer". You have one. Right now.
Additionally I've had negotiations stretch on for months. That isn't very comfortable with no income, and is an absolutely enourmous opportunity cost.
>Why would it be a bargaining handicap unless you're running out of money (i.e. desperate)? If you're a strong enough candidate to land an offer at a top firm
The more specialized you are the fewer jobs there are out there that match your skill set. Not every job market is as liquid as that of, say, junior java developers.
Rejecting this job might mean waiting another month or two for another to come along.
Avoiding months of unemployment also isn't just about the hit to your savings it's also about the hole on your CV.
This is silly. Your BATNA can be the amount a competing company is willing to pay you in another offer.
If you lack confidence that you'll be able to find at least another two job offers in a timeframe that makes you comfortable, then I agree don't quit your job.
Anyone with experience shouldn't lack that confidence though.
I'm not wealthy enough to wait for a better offer indefinitely, and the places I was applying to are for all intents and purposes. Negotiating with only X months of runway is very different.
Your argument also assumes that I have a competing offer already when negotiating, but how did I get that competing offer? If you have a job, that solves the chicken and egg problem. If you don't, you don't have the leverage to anchor that first offer, which anchors the second, etc.
Having done both at similar skill levels, I can tell you the outcomes are much better with a job in hand.
I last switched jobs while working at Apple last October. Having the BATNA of your current employment is crucial to the negotiation process and I can't imagine forgoing that- if you have no current income that's an insane bargaining handicap.
Anyone with experience absolutely is not going to go for "quit your job, and maybe we'll give you a new one after a week, maybe it won't work out and you are boned"